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 Canadian Politics Thread: Dumpster Fire edition 
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Rook wrote:
Italians and old people, gross.


You'd hate Victoria, BC. Don't kpow about Italians, but you can't swing a stick anywhere in that city without hitting at least 3 old people.

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09 Feb 2018, 14:23
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
I don't know, hitting old people with a stick doesn't sound so bad

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09 Feb 2018, 14:39
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Rook wrote:
OptionalPlayer wrote:
Rook wrote:
I'd rather have ISIS than more Italians in this country

Move here to Niagara. Not only is it the retirement capital of Canada, it also features a heavily dense Italian population.

I gotta tell you, that sounds just awful. Italians and old people, gross. I thought quinte/Kingston was the retirement capital though.

We're also an unemployed GM town. I work in retail. Everyone is like, "Give me a deal right now!" "It's too much money! You're crooks!" and "You expect me to do that?" regarding the purchase of a single $1 candy bar and asking the customer to wait in line like the others.

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09 Feb 2018, 14:48
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
OptionalPlayer wrote:
Rook wrote:
OptionalPlayer wrote:
Rook wrote:
I'd rather have ISIS than more Italians in this country

Move here to Niagara. Not only is it the retirement capital of Canada, it also features a heavily dense Italian population.

I gotta tell you, that sounds just awful. Italians and old people, gross. I thought quinte/Kingston was the retirement capital though.

We're also an unemployed GM town.

said half of Ontario and parts of Quebec

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09 Feb 2018, 14:50
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-37 ... -1.4529997

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/statu ... -1.4529997

Why is Trudeau taking sides AGAINST the legal system here? He should at best offer no comment at all.

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10 Feb 2018, 12:24
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
The PM sending condolences to somebody for losing a court case is pretty fucked up. It sounds like he also talked to the Justice Minister about it (for some reason). That ain't right.

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10 Feb 2018, 14:10
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-376-boushie-verdict-human-rights-in-the-philippines-ads-in-space-releasethememo-and-more-1.4523359/there-is-no-justice-outrage-grows-after-gerald-stanley-found-not-guilty-1.4529997

https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/statu ... -1.4529997

Why is Trudeau taking sides AGAINST the legal system here? He should at best offer no comment at all.


Because he's a fucking moron.


10 Feb 2018, 14:43
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Blackjebus wrote:
The PM sending condolences to somebody for losing a court case is pretty fucked up. It sounds like he also talked to the Justice Minister about it (for some reason). That ain't right.

Well there's ties to racism so I can understand why he's wanting to be familiar to the case. As for what he said on Twitter: yeah, he should've kept to himself.

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10 Feb 2018, 17:28
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
There are no "ties to racism" in this case.

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10 Feb 2018, 17:32
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Sure.

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10 Feb 2018, 18:12
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
What I'm most perplexed about is indigenous ambivalence to the fact that a large group of inebriated strangers showed up at a man's home with a loaded rifle. One would think they'd be more understanding of his response, given that this is what they've been upset about for the better part of four hundred years.

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10 Feb 2018, 19:38
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
I am still concerned about the Justice Minister and Prime Minister inserting themselves into the trial and expressing their feelings about the outcome of this trial as if the judge, jury and others involved in this trial all made a big mistake. Now, if the dead person was the white farmer would they still by trying to bring the integrity of Canada's justice system into disrepute?

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10 Feb 2018, 22:43
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
I don't think so.

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11 Feb 2018, 00:14
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Blackjebus wrote:
BC has their own tanker spills. BC also sells massive amounts of coal (far 'dirtier' than any oil) to China (who gives zero fucks about environmental damage). But as long as it's not burned in BC, they can boast about how they don't create those emissions themselves.

So don't you dare wag your finger at Alberta for extracting oil out of the ground, because BC does not have the high ground at all.

We live in the same goddamned country. Don't think for a second that a provincial border makes one province morally superior to the next.



Yeah, I fucking dare.

Small point of fact: BC coal is metallurgical coal - for steelmaking, so for every time you state that people need oil, well they need steel even more. Got any way to do that without coking coal? No? Okay. Not that I see Albertans making any steel. Plenty of coal that they burn for power though. And next, they'll reject our cleaner cheaper power out of pure spite.

Larger point: Yeah, we use oil too. We produce natural gas. We have refineries, not that this bitumen is meant for our own use. That's the world as it exists right now, and ordinary citizens have little or no power to make the decisions that can change it. But how are we ever going to reduce our own dependency on oil or our tolerance of pollution, if every time there's a decision to be made, those with the power to change things find some new excuse not to? The ratchet of power always turns towards doing more environmental damage, not less. We reduce emissions in one minor way, then they allow it to expand even more in some other way. It can't go on like that, and the choice is not "environment or economy". It is the new survivable economy versus the old one that's gradually killing us all.

The sky won't fall in Alberta because BC doesn't want to let it expand, nor is exporting bitumen as cheaply as possible even the best use of a valuable non-renewable resource. But if you listen to the petroleum lobby, Albertans are always on the edge of poverty and starvation, only remedied by never ever considering anything else except the potential income for the petroleum industry. They just want to double-down on the status quo, period. And they have the money to make people listen to that message and obscure anything contrary to it.

Yeah, here we are: potential money versus the increasing certainty of disasters that no amount of money can ever fix, like species extinction. The money won't be going to us, and let's face it, if disaster strikes, we'll be left to fend for ourselves, because that is what always happens. We have enough potential disasters looming here already. We do not need more risk and more damage. We gain nothing, and might lose everything.

As for the feds, Ottawa can't see past Calgary when they ask what "the West" wants. Ottawa also have a track record of promising all kinds of things to BC and then kicking those BC concerns to the curb as soon as the election is done. (Electoral reform, navy and coast guard capabilities, and sound fisheries management being just 3.)

Doesn't mean that BC has any interest in seeing the whiny fat cats of Alberta get the right to poison us even quicker every time the oil price plummets and they can't maintain their second homes and snowmobiles.

Don't even try to claim Alberta is the one under attack. BC is the one that's being attacked.

BC got fucked over by 9 years of an Albertan federal government under that tyrant Stephen Harper.

9 years of Albertan oil interests getting whatever they wanted.
9 years of scientists being silenced or else fired for daring to speak any facts about climate change, toxic waste, and pollution killing the sea life out here.
9 years of rigging the NEB certification process so that "yes" was the only possible answer, and contrary evidence could never be heard.
9 years of lies and oil industry spin being paid for with Canadian taxpayers' money.
9 years of telling First Nations "get on board with Big Petro or get fucked".
9 years of environmental regulations, water safety and fisheries enforcement being shredded.
9 years of having our emergency response capacity cut and our Coast Guard bases shut down.

An architecture of tyranny, created to make sure that no arguments were ever heard that the oil industry didn't like. All to clear the way for an industry that has had catastrophic spills over and over again, proving only that their real response to environmental damage is to pass the costs onto taxpayers while keep their profits intact.

Yeah, YOUR prime minister did that. He talked big about the "national interest" while doing anything he could to damage Canada's future and its national sovereignty.

The last BC government didn't care - it was a Harperite party, and completely corrupt. The biggest of their political donations came from corporate interests outside of BC: fundraising events held in Calgary, to shackle BC policy to Albertan and American resource company interests; openly taking bribes from Asian speculators and money laundering syndicates. Where has the "national" government been for all that? the RCMP? Oh right, the RCMP and CSIS were told by Harper to treat environmental protestors, pro democracy activists, and scientists as terrorist organizations. Trudeau lets the scientists and civil servants speak a bit more, but basically ignores everything they tell him about making meaningful changes. And yeah, the RCMP is still there in Burnaby pouncing on anyone protesting Kinder Morgan, siding with a US corporation and snuffing out dissent like a bunch of Pinkertons.

Your province's government still supports BC being fucked over yet again; I guess it has to, regardless of whether it's NDP or Conservative, or whatever other fume-huffing puppets your oil industry places into power there.

And then you Albertans cry about "western alienation", because the true west, the real west, BC doesn't want to be used as your dumping ground anymore.

Our fellow "western Canadians"? Don't make me laugh. "Western Canada" as a concept was only ever about what Calgary wants, a mythology that Alberta's petroleum elite created. Calgary imaging themselves as the imperial power, asking us to help them fight Ottawa or Toronto or Montreal, as if being under Calgary's thumb would make any positive difference to us.

Yeah, we remember you, Alberta. We remember you sending your homeless and drug addicts and criminals to BC with one-way bus tickets. It began with Ralph Klein and never really stopped. Toxic people dumped here too - just a template for how your province likes to dump your problems onto others.

Our countrymen? Seems you only play that card when you want something that we don't. BC citizens are not going to take lectures on being Canadian from a province that frequently forgets that the maple leaf, not the Stars and Stripes, is the flag they should be saluting.

We have been better and more loyal Canadians than Alberta ever was - and our "reward" for that solidarity is to be stabbed in the back by both Alberta and Ottawa, over and over again. The knives are out? That's nothing new. BC's choice is to either turn and fight back, blade to blade, or to be chumps by imagining that we will ever get a fair shake from people who just want to shiv us to death anyway.

Yeah, tell us about the moral high ground. Tell us about how "under attack" you feel after 9 years of Harper and 3 years of Harper Lite. Tell us how "Canada's national interest" involves crushing local opposition in favour of an American pipeline company's project to export bitumen overseas without bothering to refine it here first. Oh, if we don't let their operations expand, if we reject the corrupted process that made it possible, you'll get mad and cut off our fuel supply? LOL. Yeah, because corruption and extortion are the basis of a good relationship between "friends and neighbours". You're counting on us wanting peaceful relations for some reason, after you give us every reason to consider you our enemies and getting the federal government to act as muscle for you? You do not know BC then.

Morally superior? We are just looking after this province, and this country's, future survival. We are doing what needs to be done, because it needs to be done. Motherfucker, we are the high ground.

The feds being on your side is only a sign of their cowardice - moral and political cowardice. Short-sighted avarice telling them to just tuck scientific reality under the carpet and pretend it will go away on its own. That's not an endorsement worth having, and for us, not a government worth obeying.They will use their power to force this on us, for you? Get your head out of your ass an realize that is what will break this country and makes us enemies. We are already half way there. BC doesn't shy from fighting - conflict is in our blood; vendettas are common and long lasting.

British Columbia was a self-governing colony with little to do with any easterners before being enticed into Confederation; any rights to the pacific coast only came about through our agreement to be part of Canada. We certainly will not take orders from Albertans with regard to our territory. We had 9 years of that shit under Harper and we never will again. Do not think we cannot match every escalation of conflict with something even bigger or more vicious. Confederation is not unbreakable. Quebec proved that (and because of that danger, Energy East was cancelled - a double standard we take note of as well).

Go on, Albertans - easterners - keep attacking BC.
Keep treating us as enemies of a so-called "national interest" that we never had any part in deciding.
Increase the arrogance. Up the stakes.
Use all the weapons of legalized tyranny and constitutional subjugation against honest and loyal Canadians who are just fighting for their future survival.
Then watch us escalate the conflict, to the point where we leave Canada, and that puts an end to "your" dominion over the Pacific ocean.

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12 Feb 2018, 22:45
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
verbalsniper wrote:
Then watch us escalate the conflict, to the point where we leave Canada, and that puts an end to "your" dominion over the Pacific ocean.


LOOL

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12 Feb 2018, 22:57
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Never gonna happen. Though I wouldn't mind if most BC hipsters left the country.

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12 Feb 2018, 23:08
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
They did. They're all living in Portland now.

:)

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12 Feb 2018, 23:32
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Trudeau: You're racist unconsciously.

http://www.lfpress.com/2018/02/13/its-a ... e-equality

Drama teacher turned psychologist. I wonder what actual psychologists have to say about this.

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13 Feb 2018, 22:52
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Stanley verdict: We may not like it, but we must respect it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.4531086

Quote:
Among the criticisms, two veteran and highly respected Crown prosecutors were called out as being "incapable of handling such a high-profile case" despite decades of experience on complex and difficult trials.

The members of jury, after having been lauded by the counsel for Boushie's family "as taking their oath very seriously," were being called racist hours later.

Chief Justice Martel Popescul, a highly experienced trial judge and former trial lawyer, was being referenced as the former RCMP lawyer who "tried to stop the inquiry into the murder of Cree trapper Leo LaChance" in 1991 — as if his former work as a lawyer somehow had a bearing on his conduct in this case.


Quote:
As a lawyer and citizen, I acknowledge we can always improve the system. But improvement can only occur if we are respectful.

We need to respect the jury in this case. Failure to do so can compound injustice. We need to respect their work, dedication and commitment to our system. They deliberated. They heard the evidence.

Most commentators, including myself, did not.

We don't have to agree with the decision, but we must respect it. Disrespecting these 12 men and women has no place in improving the system. In this regard, we also can and must do better.

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13 Feb 2018, 22:56
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Lawyer: Trudeau commentary on Stanley case may have tainted any appeal process

https://globalnews.ca/news/4022425/colt ... au-appeal/

Prime Minister dumbass strikes again.

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13 Feb 2018, 22:57
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kim-cam ... -1.4533465

Former Prime Minister and the Waldo nobody wants to find, Kim Campbell, slithers back from the pit of irrelevance to admonish reporters who wear sleeveless tops. CBC reports that she feels they lack "gravitas" and undermine credibility.

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13 Feb 2018, 23:32
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
Stanley verdict: We may not like it, but we must respect it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.4531086

Quote:
Among the criticisms, two veteran and highly respected Crown prosecutors were called out as being "incapable of handling such a high-profile case" despite decades of experience on complex and difficult trials.

The members of jury, after having been lauded by the counsel for Boushie's family "as taking their oath very seriously," were being called racist hours later.

Chief Justice Martel Popescul, a highly experienced trial judge and former trial lawyer, was being referenced as the former RCMP lawyer who "tried to stop the inquiry into the murder of Cree trapper Leo LaChance" in 1991 — as if his former work as a lawyer somehow had a bearing on his conduct in this case.


Quote:
As a lawyer and citizen, I acknowledge we can always improve the system. But improvement can only occur if we are respectful.

We need to respect the jury in this case. Failure to do so can compound injustice. We need to respect their work, dedication and commitment to our system. They deliberated. They heard the evidence.

Most commentators, including myself, did not.

We don't have to agree with the decision, but we must respect it. Disrespecting these 12 men and women has no place in improving the system. In this regard, we also can and must do better.



Considering this case, basically it's two versions of events not just about what was the cause of the conflict, but also how intentional the shooting was.
That's polarizing - whites in SK believe one version; indigenous people believe another. Can't change the facts of the case, only hope to get jurors who are going to look at facts and evidence.

The problem is:

Trials by a jury of one's peers are supposed to be based on the idea of fairness, because in theory the people who most understand the context are those that are from your community or region, and also because 12 minds working on an issue should be less able to be swayed by things like superstition or prejudice.

Does this theory pan out in real life? Well, not perfectly or consistently - so the mechanism of jury selection & pre-emptory challenges was created to weed out "peers" who were too prejudiced or irrational to judge a case based on facts & evidence.

But even that has a fatal flaw and this case proved it: The defense is under no obligation to consider anything except what stands the best chance of getting their client acquitted; and the legal system is biased towards defendants. So what the system allows is a defense lawyer to challenge an unlimited number of jurors without needing to justify why.

Now you get to this case and the fatal flaw becomes clear: the jury system with unlimited pre-emptory challenges was designed to negate prejudices, but instead can be used to reinforce and amplify them. Racial polarization was clearly employed as a defense strategy. They started with the largest jury pool ever assembled in Saskatchewan history, and the defense lawyer nixed every single potential juror who wasn't white, every aboriginal was arbitrarily deleted from consideration. It is pretty fucking clear what the defense wanted - an all-white jury.

Once that was allowed, the facts of the case didn't matter. The case was won in the tainted jury selection process - much like the Rodney King case being moved to Simi Valley, the decision turned on who was sitting in judgement, not the circumstances they were judging.

And that's basically the opposite of what juries are for and how a fair trial is defined. This case just made a mockery of that. Was it a just / correct result or unjust / incorrect for this specific case and these specific charges? That no longer matters.

There's an old saying about legal matters: "Justice must not just be done, but must be seen to be done." The public is not going to see this as legitimate, because the result was arrived at through such dishonourable methods.

What matters is that the system of jury selection has a huge gaping flaw in it, and just created a terrible precedent that if left unchallenged, will lead to the discrediting of all jury trials in Canada. Lawyers will now use this result to ensure that a jury can only be composed of members of one's own ethnic or religious group.

That's why the federal government needs to deal with the issue this case has caused.

The federal government should only be dealing with the macro problem of the jury selection system, not the micro issues of this specific case.

I expect what we'll see from the Feds is some new measures that will limit challenges of jurors, perhaps by requiring a challenger to declare cause, or perhaps by limiting the number of jurors that can be challenged by either side.

My personal opinion is that the only real way to define a proper group of one's peers is by proper scientific randomization of the available jury pool. You'd take a risk of sometimes getting a prejudiced or screwball juror, but as we can see, the current system may actually make that more likely rather than less.

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14 Feb 2018, 02:28
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kim-campbell-sleeveless-dresses-1.4533465

Former Prime Minister and the Waldo nobody wants to find, Kim Campbell, slithers back from the pit of irrelevance to admonish reporters who wear sleeveless tops. CBC reports that she feels they lack "gravitas" and undermine credibility.


It's like Bill Cosby telling black kids to pull their pants up all over again :lol:

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14 Feb 2018, 09:23
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
verbalsniper wrote:
thelostpatrol wrote:
Stanley verdict: We may not like it, but we must respect it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatche ... -1.4531086

Quote:
Among the criticisms, two veteran and highly respected Crown prosecutors were called out as being "incapable of handling such a high-profile case" despite decades of experience on complex and difficult trials.

The members of jury, after having been lauded by the counsel for Boushie's family "as taking their oath very seriously," were being called racist hours later.

Chief Justice Martel Popescul, a highly experienced trial judge and former trial lawyer, was being referenced as the former RCMP lawyer who "tried to stop the inquiry into the murder of Cree trapper Leo LaChance" in 1991 — as if his former work as a lawyer somehow had a bearing on his conduct in this case.


Quote:
As a lawyer and citizen, I acknowledge we can always improve the system. But improvement can only occur if we are respectful.

We need to respect the jury in this case. Failure to do so can compound injustice. We need to respect their work, dedication and commitment to our system. They deliberated. They heard the evidence.

Most commentators, including myself, did not.

We don't have to agree with the decision, but we must respect it. Disrespecting these 12 men and women has no place in improving the system. In this regard, we also can and must do better.



Considering this case, basically it's two versions of events not just about what was the cause of the conflict, but also how intentional the shooting was.
That's polarizing - whites in SK believe one version; indigenous people believe another. Can't change the facts of the case, only hope to get jurors who are going to look at facts and evidence.

The problem is:

Trials by a jury of one's peers are supposed to be based on the idea of fairness, because in theory the people who most understand the context are those that are from your community or region, and also because 12 minds working on an issue should be less able to be swayed by things like superstition or prejudice.

Does this theory pan out in real life? Well, not perfectly or consistently - so the mechanism of jury selection & pre-emptory challenges was created to weed out "peers" who were too prejudiced or irrational to judge a case based on facts & evidence.

But even that has a fatal flaw and this case proved it: The defense is under no obligation to consider anything except what stands the best chance of getting their client acquitted; and the legal system is biased towards defendants. So what the system allows is a defense lawyer to challenge an unlimited number of jurors without needing to justify why.

Now you get to this case and the fatal flaw becomes clear: the jury system with unlimited pre-emptory challenges was designed to negate prejudices, but instead can be used to reinforce and amplify them. Racial polarization was clearly employed as a defense strategy. They started with the largest jury pool ever assembled in Saskatchewan history, and the defense lawyer nixed every single potential juror who wasn't white, every aboriginal was arbitrarily deleted from consideration. It is pretty fucking clear what the defense wanted - an all-white jury.

Once that was allowed, the facts of the case didn't matter. The case was won in the tainted jury selection process - much like the Rodney King case being moved to Simi Valley, the decision turned on who was sitting in judgement, not the circumstances they were judging.

And that's basically the opposite of what juries are for and how a fair trial is defined. This case just made a mockery of that. Was it a just / correct result or unjust / incorrect for this specific case and these specific charges? That no longer matters.

There's an old saying about legal matters: "Justice must not just be done, but must be seen to be done." The public is not going to see this as legitimate, because the result was arrived at through such dishonourable methods.

What matters is that the system of jury selection has a huge gaping flaw in it, and just created a terrible precedent that if left unchallenged, will lead to the discrediting of all jury trials in Canada. Lawyers will now use this result to ensure that a jury can only be composed of members of one's own ethnic or religious group.

That's why the federal government needs to deal with the issue this case has caused.

The federal government should only be dealing with the macro problem of the jury selection system, not the micro issues of this specific case.

I expect what we'll see from the Feds is some new measures that will limit challenges of jurors, perhaps by requiring a challenger to declare cause, or perhaps by limiting the number of jurors that can be challenged by either side.

My personal opinion is that the only real way to define a proper group of one's peers is by proper scientific randomization of the available jury pool. You'd take a risk of sometimes getting a prejudiced or screwball juror, but as we can see, the current system may actually make that more likely rather than less.


There aren't two versions of events. There are just two interpretations. One based on defense of self and family, and another based on race.

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14 Feb 2018, 10:18
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Post Re: Canadian Politics Thread: General Cornhollis edition
Federal Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are meeting with relatives of Boushie today.

The Liberals are fucking clueless. Do they even realize the level of interference they are bringing right now between the executive/legislative and judiciary branches of our country? JUST so they can preach about how 'compassionate" they are. Unreal.

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14 Feb 2018, 13:31
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