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 U.S. Politics: No New Jokes or Posts 
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
No, I didn't realize there were previous comments you were waiting on answers to. Maybe I skipped over them?

Not a problem. They're at the bottom of page 43. It was my response to:
thelostpatrol wrote:
Everything relating to Russia-Trump has been based on conjecture, and most of it has come from people in or near Clinton's pocket. You won't be able to find anything beyond that because there's simply nothing conclusive out there. But I look forward to your response.

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13 Jan 2018, 10:01
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
130k is a lot for nothing happening.

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13 Jan 2018, 10:44
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Domsen wrote:
This whole shithole thing is so :roll:


That remark was awful if true. Imagine you or your parents are form one of those "shithole countries". Like the Congo, which only happens to be the world's main supplier of Coltan, without which none of your cellphones will work... Oh and why would someone from Norway, a country with one of the highest healthcare expenditures in the world, and a superior quality of life to the USA, want to move to the USA? LOL and does that likewise give the Norwegian politicians the right to call the USA a "shithole country"? :)

Just what incentive are you prepared to offer someone from Norway?

So did Trump actually say it? I'm not one of Trump's haters (nor can I be accused of particularly warm feelings toward Trump) yet I find the allegation entirely believable and fitting with his earlier uninformed, divisive and insensitive rhetoric.

But if wanted to be more thorough in my attempts to bury him - I would attempt to actually record his speeches, wait for him to "deny the allegation" and then upload it online, making it obvious to his supporters, many of whom have no clue how to look at cached web pages to see the comments he erased and later denied making in the first place. Is it really that difficult? We all have sound and video recorders on our phones, and in our day and age this can be done very discreetly.

We live in an age where you can't be sure your own web camera isn't used to spy on you. It seems to be a burdensome duty of his aides to incessantly remind him about it. Perhaps there is some rationality to his latest bravado about the need to video record himself, but not in order to prove his innocence, which is contrary to the notion of Burden of Proof. Perhaps knowing that all his speeches are being recorded - it would at least teach him to control that big mouth of his

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13 Jan 2018, 12:26
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
OptionalPlayer wrote:
thelostpatrol wrote:
No, I didn't realize there were previous comments you were waiting on answers to. Maybe I skipped over them?

Not a problem. They're at the bottom of page 43. It was my response to:
thelostpatrol wrote:
Everything relating to Russia-Trump has been based on conjecture, and most of it has come from people in or near Clinton's pocket. You won't be able to find anything beyond that because there's simply nothing conclusive out there. But I look forward to your response.


Oh yeah I missed that post entirely. I'll get to it this weekend.

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13 Jan 2018, 12:50
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Trump turns on old US-ally Pakistan

Quote:
January 13, 2018

Henry Kissinger rightly noted that it’s often more dangerous being an ally of the United States than its enemy. The latest victim of this sad truism is Pakistan, a loyal ally of the US since the dawn of our era.

President Donald Trump’s visceral hatred of Muslims (never mind what kind, or why, or where) erupted this week as he ordered some $900 million in US aid to Pakistan to be abruptly cut off. Trump accused Pakistan of lying and deceiving the US and providing a safe haven to Afghan resistance forces of Taliban (`terrorists’ in US speak) battling American occupation forces.

Frustrated and outwitted in Afghanistan, US imperial generals, Pentagon bureaucrats and politicians have been trying to cast blame on anyone they can find, with Pakistan the primary whipping boy. Next in line is the notorious Haqqani network which is blamed for most US military failures in Afghanistan, though its active combat role is modest. I knew its founder, old man Haqqani. In the 1980’s, he was the golden boy of the CIA/Pakistani-led effort to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan.

Why has Washington given billions in aid to Pakistan? In 2001, Washington decided to invade Afghanistan to uproot or destroy the Pashtun resistance movement, Taliban, which was wrongly blamed for the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington. The ethnic Pashtun warriors President Reagan had hailed as ‘Freedom Fighters’ became ‘terrorists’ once the west wanted to occupy Afghanistan.

But invading land-locked Afghanistan was an awesome undertaking. US troops there had to be supplied through Pakistan’s principal port, Karachi, then up twisting mountain roads and across the torturous Khyber Pass into Afghanistan. The huge amount of logistical supplies required by US troops could not be met by air supply. It cost $400 per barrel for one gallon of gasoline delivered to US troops in Afghanistan, and as much as $600,000 per sortie to keep a single US warplane over Afghanistan. Without 24/7 air cover, the US occupation force would have been quickly defeated.

Invading Afghanistan without Pakistani cooperation would have been impossible. Pakistan at first refused to let US armed forces cross its borders. But as Pakistan’s former military leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf told me, ‘the US put a gun to my head and said let US troops enter and use Pakistan or ‘we will bomb you back to the Stone Age.’

That was the big stick. The carrot was some $33 billion in US cash to secure ‘Ground Lines of Communication’ (the Karachi-Bagram route) and ‘Air Lines of Communication.’ In fact, Pakistan briefly closed them in 2011 after US warplanes killed two dozen Pakistani Army soldiers. Pakistan could do it again unless Washington stops treating it like an enemy state.

Trump and his men just don’t understand that Pakistan has paramount national security interests in next-door Afghanistan. Thirty million Pakistanis are ethnic Pashtuns. They dominate Pakistan’s armed forces. Another 1.4 million Pashtun are refugees in northern Pakistan. Narrow-waisted Pakistan sees Afghanistan as its strategic hinterland in a next war with old enemy India.

The US-installed regime in Kabul routinely blames Pakistan for its glaring failures. Its powerful Communist-dominated intelligence agency routinely spreads untruths about Pakistan, claiming it supports ‘terrorism.’

In fact, the warlike Pashtun tribes along the Durand Line, the artificial border between Pakistan and Afghanistan imposed by the British colonialists, have been on the warpath since the 19th Century. Winston Churchill even approved the use of poison gas on the ‘unruly tribesmen.’ The wonderfully named Faqir of Ipi kept threatening to ride down from the Hindu Kush Mountains and put to the sack the British garrison at Peshwar.

Today, one hears threats in Pentagon circles that the US may begin bombing ‘Taliban sanctuaries’ (actually villages where these Pashtun locals live) and then send in air mobile US troops to attack them. This would make the longest war in US history even longer. Washington just can’t seem to accept that its military machine was defeated in Afghanistan, well-known as the Graveyard of Empires.

It’s also clear that the US has not given up its ambition to neutralize or destroy Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. Attacking so-called terrorist enclaves in northern Pakistan would offer a perfect cover for a major us air and ground assault on Pakistan’s nuclear complexes and dispersed storage sites. India and Israel have long been pressing the US to attack Pakistan’s nuclear infrastructure.

Any major US moves against Pakistan are very likely to push it closer to Beijing and expand Chinese influence in the region. China is unlikely to allow old ally Pakistan to be torn apart by US power. Unlike the US, China remembers its old friends.

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13 Jan 2018, 13:04
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
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13 Jan 2018, 13:35
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Svarog wrote:
Trump turns on old US-ally Pakistan


"Ally" is a strong word.

"Frenemy" is probably more accurate when describing Pakistan.

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13 Jan 2018, 15:36
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
Image


:spit:

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13 Jan 2018, 17:38
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Moby's "CIA Friends" Asked Him To Spread Word Of Trump-Russia Collusion On Facebook
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01- ... -candidate

US Accuses Russia Of Interfering In Mexican Election That Hasn't Even Happened Yet
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01- ... ppened-yet

:spit:


13 Jan 2018, 17:53
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Alright, the stock market is manipulated (it has always been) and the huge debt is going to hit the US hard, but this is so :roll:

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13 Jan 2018, 17:59
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Wow, another great fucking huge image.

Tell me, why couldn't those 2 posts be 1?

:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

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13 Jan 2018, 18:00
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Why isn't this board limiting image sizes again?

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13 Jan 2018, 18:16
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Or you know, people just having common sense.

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13 Jan 2018, 18:20
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
That's a tall order.

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13 Jan 2018, 18:26
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
I think it's more of a wide load.

Chelsea Manning is preparing to run for political office now, Maryland Senator. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/us/p ... yland.html

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13 Jan 2018, 18:49
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Need to see a platform before I can really comment.

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13 Jan 2018, 19:07
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: President Stable Genius, Fuckos! Edition
OptionalPlayer wrote:
Firstly, I agree with what VS and you said above.

I really want to get this across though:
verbalsniper wrote:
Seriously, I hate Trump too, but his opponents have to stop imagining that their loss was caused by anyone outside the USA.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

That being said...

thelostpatrol wrote:
Everything relating to Russia-Trump has been based on conjecture, and most of it has come from people in or near Clinton's pocket. You won't be able to find anything beyond that because there's simply nothing conclusive out there. But I look forward to your response.

I'll start with that there is objective evidence of collusion between the Trump team and the Russian government. We know this with Trump Jr's e-mails, Manafort's troubles, and both Flynn and Papadopoulos lying to the FBI about Russia. Is that evidence of collusion? No. It's it evidence of meddling in the election? No. Is it objective evidence showing Trump's team and Russians? Yes. Is it the Russian government? No. Then it begs the question: which Russians and why?

From the ICA:
Quote:
We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him.

The "we assess" part at the beginning there is a pretty euphemism for "we estimate." It goes in with what you're saying, TLP. It's not proof, but there's good reason to believe that, given what I mentioned above. But it's nothing conclusive.

From the ICA:
Quote:
RT America TV, a Kremlin-financed channel operated from within the United States, has substantially expanded its repertoire of programming that highlights criticism of alleged US shortcomings in democracy and civil liberties ... The Kremlin has committed significant resources to expanding the channel's reach, particularly its social media footprint ... RT America has positioned itself as a domestic US channel and has deliberately sought to obscure any legal ties to the Russian Government.

I think we can both agree that nothing in that quote is untrue. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... 26-million
Quote:
Russia-backed content reached as many as 126 million Americans on Facebook during and after the 2016 presidential election, according to the company’s prepared testimony submitted to the Senate judiciary committee before hearings this week.

Facebook believes 120 fake Russian-backed pages created 80,000 posts that were received by 29 million Americans directly, but reached a much bigger audience by users sharing, liking and following the posts.

So once again, "Facebook believes," meaning it's not concrete proof it was Russian-backed (despite the first statement in the first paragraph). But if it wasn't Russia, then who? Apparently it was the Internet Research Agency (IRA).

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/maga ... ubz=0&_r=0
Quote:
The agency had become known for employing hundreds of Russians to post pro-Kremlin propaganda online under fake identities, including on Twitter, in order to create the illusion of a massive army of supporters; it has often been called a “troll farm.”

Who funds the IRA? Where did the IRA come from? Is the IRA solely a company of despairing Russians who hate America? All of these questions are unknown - especially if they're tied to the Russian government. Did the IRA create propaganda to meddle in the US over the election? Yes. That is objectively true.

thelostpatrol wrote:
Everything relating to Russia-Trump has been based on conjecture, and most of it has come from people in or near Clinton's pocket. . You won't be able to find anything beyond that because there's simply nothing conclusive out there.

You're right. However, there is objective evidence that Russia (the country, not government) did interfere (meddle) with the election through propaganda. There is subjective evidence that Russia (the government) interfered with Trump's campaign.

So while there isn't evidence that Trump's team colluded with the Russian government or that they approved Russian meddling with the election, we can objectively say Russia did meddle with the election, especially given their scope. Whether or not it is government backed is unknown.

Did Russia's propaganda machine cost Clinton the election? Probably not, no. But there isn't really any way to measure that.

You're correct, TLP: there is nothing conclusive.

How the two (Trump's team and the Russian government) tie together is still to be seen.

I'd continue on, but y'know. I have a 128-album poll to work on for next week.

I appreciate the dialogue.

:cheers:


So I finally got a chance to go over this. I think we generally agree. Russia is finally using American propaganda tactics and the US deep state/Democrats who are now on the ass end of it are upset despite having done the exact same thing for decades, especially to the Russians. Republicans are gaining--not from the Russians directly but from the asinine Dem reaction to all of this--so they're not too worried about what Putin is doing. Enemy of my enemy, etc. That said, they still have to put on a face of concern for the audience to ensure that their base doesn't begin to believe the narratives. This isn't really anything new, nor is it conspiratorial. It's right out of America's very open playbook from the middle of the 20th century onwards. Like I've said, this is all a lot of crying over a little bit of tit-for-tat. But there's nothing here that will impeach a president and efforts would be better spent taking Trump to task over actual proven missteps, like his environment record or his complete annihilation of protections for the middle and lower classes.

I do disagree with some of the narratives of your article quotes, the bit about RT. It's called Russia Today, for fuck's sake. That RT America is the Russian perspective on the US isn't at all difficult to ascertain, is it? And really the question here is, why is the Russian perspective to dangerous to these people? What is it about a foreign news network operating in America legally and generally reporting more accurately than several of America's own media outlets that is causing so much pant-shitting on the Democrat side? RT being Kremlin-backed is a problem? What about CNN and all these other networks being in Clinton pockets and still reporting to the ROW? Is that not the same thing? The hypocrisy here is astounding.

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13 Jan 2018, 19:20
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Not to interrupt the dialogue between you and OP but Domsen? Find a smaller image or delete that monstrosity.


13 Jan 2018, 19:46
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
People gotta bitch about the board should be like this or that. Of all the things that a few have been kicking a screening for, all that has come of it is giant thread destroying images. :lol:


13 Jan 2018, 20:07
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
Anhur wrote:
People gotta bitch about the board should be like this or that. Of all the things that a few have been kicking a screening for, all that has come of it is giant thread destroying images. :lol:


Well at least the search function actually works now. So progress I guess.


13 Jan 2018, 20:13
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: President Stable Genius, Fuckos! Edition
thelostpatrol wrote:
I do disagree with some of the narratives of your article quotes, the bit about RT. It's called Russia Today, for fuck's sake. That RT America is the Russian perspective on the US isn't at all difficult to ascertain, is it? And really the question here is, why is the Russian perspective to dangerous to these people? What is it about a foreign news network operating in America legally and generally reporting more accurately than several of America's own media outlets that is causing so much pant-shitting on the Democrat side? RT being Kremlin-backed is a problem? What about CNN and all these other networks being in Clinton pockets and still reporting to the ROW? Is that not the same thing? The hypocrisy here is astounding.

I appreciate the response.

Your first paragraph (which I didn't quote), I completely agree with.

Regarding the second paragraph, RT America exists iwithn America. It's based in Washington D.C. and features American journalists reporting on America from a different PoV - which is absolutely fine. It's also fine that RT is doing it's thing in the US, I'm in agreement with you there. Is it difficult to ascertain it's part of Russia? To be blunt, yes. I'm sure it is for a lot of their viewers. Of course I can't back that up with empirical data, but I presume the average RT viewer would be similar to a Fox News viewer given there is more of a slant from RT to cater to that audience.

However, being part of the Russian propaganda scheme (which we both agree has happened), IMO, loses some of RT's credibility to report accurately and fairly - much like CNN, MSNBC, etc. being on the Dems side. Is it still a trustworthy news source? Yes. I feel it balances between Fox News' shenanigans and CNN's alarmist temperament.

But the real question you asked was: "why is the Russian perspective to dangerous to these people?"

It's not, necessarily. But it perpetuates false narratives which swings more to the Republicans favour - which is a socially unjust Republican; causing rifts and not favoring educating the public for positive reasons. I know that's a broad, ambiguous statement, but by "positive reasons" I mostly mean social justice (not SJW stuff. I'm meaning "let's help the poor, not condemn them" and positive social like that).

Does CNN and the left also perpetuate false narratives? Absolutely. It would be hypocritical, as you said, if I didn't agree. The left is horrendous right now, especially with the whole #MeToo (which I favor, but I also stand with the French actresses and their letter, but that's another story).

But what, you ask, is the problem with a Kremlin-backed news organization legally established in the US? When they purposefully interfere in an election and distort truth, it becomes a problem.

Does the left do that? Yes, but they're not a foreign entity. Russia has it out for the US, as the US also has it out for Russia. They're playing the US' game properly. But it is foreign propaganda within the US and the audience is eating it up.

I feel like that was a bit of a ramble more than an appropriate response, but I hope you can see what I was meaning in it.

Thanks again for engaging with me.

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13 Jan 2018, 20:27
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
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But what, you ask, is the problem with a Kremlin-backed news organization legally established in the US? When they purposefully interfere in an election and distort truth, it becomes a problem.


We agreed there was no collusion and then you say this. It can't be both. And anyway, they didn't. Putting a few ads out is fuck all compared to the things America has done in Russia and around the globe in terms of election interference and direct collusion against one or another government. Coups, false vote results, etc. Even Clinton likes the idea, having lamented that the Palestinian election a few years back didn't go her way. So the bar for what is considered interference and meddling has to be higher than what the Americans already do, on a regular basis, in order for me to take such claims seriously. And to this day, the Russians and their TV networks aren't even close to that.

Is it really a "propaganda scheme" though, when what they're reporting is true? Or is it simply that the people they're reporting on and the agencies that those people control are trying to smear them for outing some nasty facts? It almost parallels the conversation about Wikileaks. Anybody who's come out and revealed any bit of nasty truth about these Dems and their unsavory operations has been labeled a foreign agent, a Russian schemer or worse. I think labels like "propaganda scheme" are used less to describe and more to fear monger away from. Again, nobody can really tell me why we should be fearing the Russians so much right now. What can they possibly do to he West that the West isn't already doing to itself?

It's no secret I've been reading RT for years, alongside many, many other sources. Sometimes, I double check their facts and narratives and I don't really recall seeing anything that can't be substantiated. Their reporting on factual events usually ends there--they tend to avoid editorializing the way CNN and other MSM do here in the West. And then when there is an editorial piece, they don't obfuscate that fact. I think that because they are constantly held to a higher standard of reporting by having the Western magnifying glass on them at all times, they actually end up being a far better source for basic reporting than any of these stations we call our own, especially on matters of politics, military ops, the Mid-East, and similar.

You don't have to like them, but I think that all this scaremongering is proof of how much that perspective scares certain segments of American politics. For that, I don't find them reprehensible. On the contrary, I find them necessary.

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Last edited by thelostpatrol on 13 Jan 2018, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.



13 Jan 2018, 20:37
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
That's a fair assessment of them and their situation in the West. They're purposefully undermining American ideologies and forcing questions to be had about American systems and institutions. I understand that and appreciate it. You are correct: it is necessary. However, one could see how that could be considered invasive.

I suppose I'm more of an idealist: wishing the American people to do that for themselves rather than a foreign "enemy of the state" do it for them.

I don't agree with some of what RT reports - especially when stuff went south in Crimea. I appreciate your sentiment towards them, but do not share it.

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13 Jan 2018, 21:04
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
I thought the edit was this paragraph. Apparently I didn't initially see it.
thelostpatrol wrote:
Quote:
But what, you ask, is the problem with a Kremlin-backed news organization legally established in the US? When they purposefully interfere in an election and distort truth, it becomes a problem.

We agreed there was no collusion and then you say this. It can't be both. And anyway, they didn't. Putting a few ads out is fuck all compared to the things America has done in Russia and around the globe in terms of election interference and direct collusion against one or another government. Coups, false vote results, etc. Even Clinton likes the idea, having lamented that the Palestinian election a few years back didn't go her way. So the bar for what is considered interference and meddling has to be higher than what the Americans already do, on a regular basis, in order for me to take such claims seriously. And to this day, the Russians and their TV networks aren't even close to that.

I never said there was no collusion. All I was saying was that there is no objective proof of collusion at this time.

You said they didn't collude but have no proof otherwise. I know that means the burden of proof is on me, but I felt like my first large block of text which you responded to earlier showed some connections to how collusion is possible (just not proven yet).

It's a Catch-22. I do agree that RT serves a purpose of showing something different to the American people. It makes me hypocritical, but I'm fine with that. This wasn't about RT anyway. I only suggested RT was a small factor of a larger plot of potential collusion. It may even be blackmail on Trump instead of collusion. It may even be nothing. I'm skeptical on the whole ordeal but I'm trying to see all sides.

I agree with you: I don't think Russia is the enemy and I don't fear them. I'm okay with RT being an alternative source for news. But is RT linked to the IRA? Is the IRA part of the Kremlin? I don't know, you don't know, and we both may never know. But like I said, I'll remain skeptical and open to suggestions and information.

I still appreciate the dialogue with you, TLP. Thank you. :cheers:

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Last edited by OptionalPlayer on 13 Jan 2018, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.



13 Jan 2018, 21:04
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Post Re: U.S. Politics: Riding the Storm Edition
The edit was just for typos/capitalization. No content editing, don't worry.

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13 Jan 2018, 21:09
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