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 The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition 
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
WhPlague wrote:
And why the fuck should my tax dollars go to this asshole?


His charter rights were violated.

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23 Jul 2017, 12:12
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Yeah, that's what the law says, but I would argue that our Charter is a flawed document.

Here is some interesting/concerning fallout from this trial - since the Charter supposedly necessitates that our government "tries" to free Canadians anywhere in the world (or at least is not "complicit" in their confinement), are we now going to have to spend millions freeing Canadians who fought for ISIS who are in Iraqi jails where they aren't treated in a soft manner like Canadian jails?

These "Canadians" are people who intentionally left our country to fight against our nation's forces in support of a regime that has perpetrated sex slavery on thousands of young women and children, destroyed cultural treasures that have existed for millennia, and inflicted untold horrors on minorities. Sure, bring the kids (if they aren't being treated well), but the adults - do we really as Canadians have an obligation to protect these monsters from the foreign consequences of what they have done?

Are Canadians now on the hook to bring these fuckers home for million dollar trials, enriching lawyers on taxpayer dime?

Quote:
Some experts say Ottawa has no choice but to try to repatriate and prosecute in Canada any detained members, ensuring they aren’t tortured or otherwise mistreated by local forces. As for those ISIL children, if they have one Canadian parent, they would be citizens and, lawyers say, deserve help.

“The government has absolutely no choice but to protect the Charter rights of these Canadians,” said Lorne Dawson, a University of Waterloo professor who has extensively studied radicalized youth.

“The embassy, the consulate would have to deal with them, the way they would any Canadian who’s gotten in trouble abroad, and assist them to come home if that’s what they want to do.”

Others note there would be little public sympathy — especially after the controversial payment made to Omar Khadr — for bringing back foreign fighters, even if they were to face justice in Canada.

The French government, for one, has already said that Iraq’s court system, not France’s, should judge one of its nationals captured recently near Mosul, noted Phil Gurski, a former Canadian Security Intelligence Service analyst.

“Does the Canadian government have a legal, let alone a moral, responsibility to act on these people’s behalf? I think the answer is ‘No,’ ” said the head of the Borealis consulting company. “They made a conscious decision to leave this country and to join a group that everyone and his dog knows is a terrorist group … ‘It sucks to be you; live with it.’ ”


http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/natio ... story.html

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23 Jul 2017, 12:34
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blackjebus wrote:
Yeah, that's what the law says, but I would argue that our Charter is a flawed document.


Maybe, but the law is still the law. Whether or not the charter is flawed is another argument entirely. The charter exists as it is, and Khadr's charter rights were violated which makes him entitled to the payout. Anything else is just white noise.

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23 Jul 2017, 13:05
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blackjebus wrote:
Yeah, that's what the law says, but I would argue that our Charter is a flawed document.


OK, so which Charter rights or legal principles do you want to delete ?

- Free speech & expression
- freedom of religion & political belief
- equality of all citizens under the law
- protection against cruel and unusual punishment
- habeas corpus & right to counsel
- young offenders getting a clean slate upon adulthood (i.e. no criminal record)
- automatic Charter protection for Canadians abroad

Saying the Charter is "flawed" is easy. But there's no way to make an exception for this guy and not destroy the actual articles of it for everybody. Even the use of the "Notwithstanding Clause" to override an SCC decision requires legislation, and that has only been used once, ever: for Bill 101 in Quebec. And it was massively controversial.

Even under US law, what was done to Khadr was illegal, and a denial of US constitutional rights. Ditto for international law, and the laws of armed conflict governing the treatment of POW's.

Do you really want to uphold trials where confessions are produced by torture? If you do, you'll never be able to complain when some Canadian is tortured into confessing in Iran, China, Venezuela, Syria, Zimbabwe, etc.

There is not some list of special or exceptional countries that are allowed to torture while it is a banned for everyone else. The US torturing someone into pleading guilty is not more legitimate than if it is done by some other country.

Conservatives always have a blind spot when it comes to the US; they forgive them for things they would never accept from any other government*, not even Canada's.
(*well, Israel gets a pass also, as an extension of pro-US politics)

Do you really want to uphold the principle that the Americans can put anyone one trial under their system, without jurisdiction? A Canadian was put on trial in the US for an offense committed in Afghanistan; that makes him either our problem or an Afghan one, but the nationality of the "victim" does not matter.

No this thing is a fucking spectacle, and the Cons are milking it as much as they can.

Watching the Cuckservatives scramble to head down to the USA and denounce their own country (yet again) and damage our chances in the upcoming NAFTA renegotiations reminds me that they cannot really ever complain about other peoples' lack of allegiance to Canada. They have none.

If they were real defenders of Canada, and loyal to Canada, they should be asserting that it's not Canada's government that should be sent the bill for Khadr's torture, but the US government, which did the torturing.

Either that or just come out as universally pro-torture, and as you suggested, do away with all those troublesome sections of the Charter which prohibit things like that.


And keep in mind, I am against the Canadian government paying Khadr anything.

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23 Jul 2017, 14:58
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
verbalsniper wrote:
Blackjebus wrote:
Yeah, that's what the law says, but I would argue that our Charter is a flawed document.


OK, so which Charter rights or legal principles do you want to delete ?


Who said anything about deleting?

I realize that I am no law expert, but the Charter will keep lawyers and judges busy for the next 100 years, still trying to make interpretations in the thing. Most of these interpretations seem to center around trying to narrow down the principles within it. But it was written as a broad document to avoid those things. I think it also seems to grant judges far too much power.

Most importantly to me is that I think "freedom of expression" should be strengthened. We in Canada don't actually have a right to "freedom of speech". I think free speech and free expression need to be absolute.

Do you think the Canadian Charter is perfect?

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23 Jul 2017, 21:05
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Simple fact remains is that it's currently valid, Canada failed in it's duty, and the US still hasn't proven in a legitimate trial that Khadr was guilty. They refused to give him a trial and just held him until he agreed to plead guilty in return for an exit strategy.

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23 Jul 2017, 21:46
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
verbalsniper wrote:
to override an SCC decision requires legislation, and that has only been used once, ever: for Bill 101 in Quebec. And it was massively controversial.


Controversial? Maybe. Whatever. Not for the vast majority of the Quebec population.

Those against bill 101 can go stick a giant spiky metal rod up their ass.

If you can't even speak the province's official
language to your customers you can go take a dive in the st-lawrence river.

That's what the bill 101 is for. To protect our french speaking culture and heritage.


The vast majority of businesses here already DO accomodate english speaking customers.
Small snack bars in rural areas everywhere even hold hand painted signs : "WE SPEAK ENGLISH" to attract english speaking customers.

Can't say the same for the rest of Canada accomodating us french speakers. I'm bilingual, but even in a place not far from Quebec (New Brunswick) I had to be the translator to my mom an awful lot.

If it weren't for bill 101 the french language would be all but extinct in business and commerce.

A bill like that would never be approved now with the liberal SJWs proclaiming that anybody who is proud to be a french speaking nationalist Quebecer is a racist xenophobe.

They can take a dive to the St-Lawrence too.


24 Jul 2017, 09:15
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
WhPlague wrote:
verbalsniper wrote:
to override an SCC decision requires legislation, and that has only been used once, ever: for Bill 101 in Quebec. And it was massively controversial.


Controversial? Maybe. Whatever. Not for the vast majority of the Quebec population.

Those against bill 101 can go stick a giant spiky metal rod up their ass.

If you can't even speak the province's official
language to your customers you can go take a dive in the st-lawrence river.

That's what the bill 101 is for. To protect our french speaking culture and heritage.


The vast majority of businesses here already DO accomodate english speaking customers.
Small snack bars in rural areas everywhere even hold hand painted signs : "WE SPEAK ENGLISH" to attract english speaking customers.

Can't say the same for the rest of Canada accomodating us french speakers. I'm bilingual, but even in a place not far from Quebec (New Brunswick) I had to be the translator to my mom an awful lot.

If it weren't for bill 101 the french language would be all but extinct in business and commerce.

A bill like that would never be approved now with the liberal SJWs proclaiming that anybody who is proud to be a french speaking nationalist Quebecer is a racist xenophobe.

They can take a dive to the St-Lawrence too.


I agree with all of this for sure

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24 Jul 2017, 14:13
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
i also concur with the bike riding lego aficionado

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24 Jul 2017, 14:23
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
WhPlague wrote:
Can't say the same for the rest of Canada accomodating us french speakers.


The vast majority of Canada is not English/French bilingual. Almost all Canadians can speak either one or the other.

The Liberal government of the day flubbed that "bilingualism" idea up, big time.

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24 Jul 2017, 17:01
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
I hate that I hated french class. Wish I could go back and take it seriously so I could speak it. I'm terrible at it other that the odd word or phrase here and then. Mostly useless in Quebec unless the person is well versed in English.


24 Jul 2017, 17:30
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Unrelated to french, this conversation is still funny regardless. Happened in a montreal chinese restaurant. Where i instinctively speak english.

"Me: "Is a smaller soup included with this main course?"
Waitress: "soup, six dollars!"

Me : i know that, I can see it in the menu. But i want to know if a smaller portion is available to accompany the main dish.

Waitress looking extremely confused:
"Soup, six dollars!"


24 Jul 2017, 19:04
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blasphomet wrote:
I hated french class.


Racist.

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24 Jul 2017, 20:23
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blackjebus wrote:
verbalsniper wrote:
Blackjebus wrote:
Yeah, that's what the law says, but I would argue that our Charter is a flawed document.


OK, so which Charter rights or legal principles do you want to delete ?


Who said anything about deleting?

I realize that I am no law expert, but the Charter will keep lawyers and judges busy for the next 100 years, still trying to make interpretations in the thing. Most of these interpretations seem to center around trying to narrow down the principles within it. But it was written as a broad document to avoid those things. I think it also seems to grant judges far too much power.

Do you think the Canadian Charter is perfect?



No, not perfect. I think there are certain conceptions of rights within it that are given too broadly, or too easily. There are some things I would even curtail, or limit, to tie it batter to a sense of national identity and citizenship.

But if I have a problem with the way that Charter rights are commonly perceived, it is due to the interpretations of the Charter which have stretched and distorted its reach and intent. Much of that wilful - the judges and the lawyers pushing the envelope, within a system that they know puts no limits on judicial power. That is the mistake - not the thing itself but the fact that no checks and balances exist to ensure that the judiciary is accountable to the common people / the nation.

so, I support the principle of "parliamentary supremacy" - but only up to a point. The notwithstanding clause is a means to override the SCC, but not a good one.

If you re-read all of what I wrote earlier, maybe you'd see what I mean. Even if all that was changed, the government of Canada couldn't just say "fuck the law" in the case of this one guy, and the people shouldn't ask them to.

The USA decides it can do whatever it wants, and never mind other countries' sovereignty, even their own allies. That's nothing new. Doesn't mean our government had to just sit there and take it. But take it they did - in Harper's case, eagerly.

And that's what they did wrong - going along with what happened to him, like weak fools.

Does giving him money do anything for him, or for us ? No. Does it really uphold human rights, in Canada or anywhere else? Nope.

This government threw in the towel and paid him rather than drag it out; the last one would have fought him for years more, but I think still would have eventually been forced to as well. The law is the law, and unless they were willing to "Notwithstanding" the SCC ruling just for him, there was no way to not pay compensation.

That does not mean they would have to be generous, or that the amount was not way out of line. At most, they should have only paid Khadr his legal costs plus one (symbolic) dollar for his suffering. Not that he wasn't a child soldier or that he didn't suffer while imprisoned and tortured - he was and he did - but the precedent of paying him that much money is terrible. Way more than our veterans get for being crippled, way more than residential school survivors get for being stolen from their parents by the state and then raped.

It's so much money he should change his name to Khadr McDavid. :lol:

But fuck it, as an experiment in peoples' outrage, why not go to your conservative forums and ask:

"If it's bad to give Omar Khadr millions in compensation, why are we shipping billions of dollars in weaponry to the Saudis and their Al Qaida proxies today ?"

:idea:

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25 Jul 2017, 00:31
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
verbalsniper wrote:
It's so much money he should change his name to Khadr McDavid. :lol:


I'm just quoting this because the joke is fucking brilliant and goddammit, it deserves to be highlighted :lol: :cry: :lol:

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25 Jul 2017, 07:35
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
verbalsniper wrote:
Khadr McDavid


:spit: :lol:

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25 Jul 2017, 11:51
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blasphomet wrote:
I hate that I hated french class. Wish I could go back and take it seriously so I could speak it. I'm terrible at it other that the odd word or phrase here and then. Mostly useless in Quebec unless the person is well versed in English.



Big time.


25 Jul 2017, 12:25
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Exorcist wrote:
verbalsniper wrote:
It's so much money he should change his name to Khadr McDavid. :lol:


I'm just quoting this because the joke is fucking brilliant and goddammit, it deserves to be highlighted :lol: :cry: :lol:



Blackjebus wrote:
verbalsniper wrote:
Khadr McDavid


:spit: :lol:



Well, let's just keep using it then. :thumb:

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25 Jul 2017, 12:56
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Harper's legacy continues to make impressions, as his Saudi arms deal pops up in the press with forces there using trucks we sold them to attack their own citizens.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... in-trudeau

Geez, who would have thought arming the Saudi's would be a very bad idea? Oh I know, just about EVERYBODY.

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31 Jul 2017, 20:02
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
and who does it anyway? EVERYBODY

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01 Aug 2017, 09:00
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
That's why I've been pushing like crazy for energy independence in this country.

Why are Eastern refineries buying oil from gulf dictatorships and Western oil producers trying to sell oil to Asia? Canada has high amounts of extracted oil sitting in storage in the West, and big expensive refineries running under capacity in the East. All that's needed is a connection between the two parts of the country and everybody wins. How retarded are we?

The Energy east pipeline should be a priority so we can stop buying oil from gulf dictatorships. We should stop doing business with those cunts altogether.

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01 Aug 2017, 09:19
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Blackjebus wrote:
That's why I've been pushing like crazy for energy independence in this country.

Why are Eastern refineries buying oil from gulf dictatorships and Western oil producers trying to sell oil to Asia? Canada has high amounts of extracted oil sitting in storage in the West, and big expensive refineries running under capacity in the East. All that's needed is a connection between the two parts of the country and everybody wins. How retarded are we?

The Energy east pipeline should be a priority so we can stop buying oil from gulf dictatorships. We should stop doing business with those cunts altogether.


I would say that's 50% of the attack. The other 50% is working towards making green energy affordable and common since oil is a finite resource.

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01 Aug 2017, 09:41
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Exorcist wrote:
Blackjebus wrote:
That's why I've been pushing like crazy for energy independence in this country.

Why are Eastern refineries buying oil from gulf dictatorships and Western oil producers trying to sell oil to Asia? Canada has high amounts of extracted oil sitting in storage in the West, and big expensive refineries running under capacity in the East. All that's needed is a connection between the two parts of the country and everybody wins. How retarded are we?

The Energy east pipeline should be a priority so we can stop buying oil from gulf dictatorships. We should stop doing business with those cunts altogether.


I would say that's 50% of the attack. The other 50% is working towards making green energy affordable and common since oil is a finite resource.



I don't think he's into that second part, Ex. :lol:

Improving refining capacity in Canada would be as much a key to this as the means of getting it there. The oil companies have generally done jack shit on that front - Alberta seems an exception, but that is mainly to service their exporting operations anyway - the refinieries in BC, NB, and Quebec have in general been neglected.

Canada has enough oil, bitumen and natural gas to meet all our own domestic needs - but the system is not designed around our needs. Our oil infrastructure is geared towards satisfying the hungrier US. That's why (aside from technical issues about specific crude types) you can get gas shortages and price spikes in Canada, while we import gasoline from outside the country.

This is not a case where Canada takes care of its own fuel supply needs first and only exports the surplus; that was the intent of the National Energy Policy, basically. However, the oil industry in Alberta hated it, preferring to be able to export without having restrictions that prioritized domestic fuel needs.

Truth is, the oil companies would rather ship the crude and bitumen overseas, refine it at bigger foreign refineries that use cheap labour, then ship the refined gasoline and diesel back to Canada (or wherever) to be re-sold here at the marked-up retail value. Refineries in India and China are booming, but despite the they do not actually have any oil to speak of, they also export refined fuel; it's not only them serving their own needs.

Does it make sense, in terms of resource management, for Canada's fuel needs to be dependent on non-Canadian suppliers of refining, while we have a domestic surplus of raw material? No.

But the counter-argument made by the oil business - the anti-nationalist argument - is basically that there is more fast-money which can be earned for crude & bitumen suppliers by prioritizing export to the larger foreign markets and refining facilities.

:idea:

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01 Aug 2017, 13:05
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
verbalsniper wrote:
Improving refining capacity in Canada would be as much a key to this as the means of getting it there.


Refineries are very expensive to build, expensive to run, and have low profit margins - most of the money in oil is made at the extraction point these days. Investors will choose to put their money into new offshore drilling or new oil sands project that can start tomorrow, rather than trying to jump through all the regulatory hoops needed to get a refinery built 10 years from now.

But Canada would face even more political problems if we decided to build some refineries - each refinery would need new pipelines built to transport feedstock, then to distribute the finished products. Wherever a refinery is placed, pipelines need to be buried all over the place. Good fucking luck getting that done today. :lol:

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01 Aug 2017, 16:57
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Post Re: The Canadian political bullshit thread: Poutine Edition
Ottawa probes claims Saudi Arabia used Canadian-made weapons against own citizens

https://www.rt.com/news/398192-canada-s ... irculation

So if it turns out they were using US-supplied weapons, is this enough to make us feel better that there is no blood on our government's hands? I suppose it's better if they use Canadian supplied firearms against civilians in Yemen rather then their own citizens? We supplied the most intolerant and totalitarian regime on the planet with weapons, this is all that really matters!!

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02 Aug 2017, 09:22
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