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 Kiss question. Is it possible that..... 
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Post Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Mark St.John was their best guitar player? Just listening to Animalize. There are some seriously ripping solos and great guitar work all around! I might argue their best.

I didnt realize he left because of a condition that left him largely unable to play. I wonder if the band made sure he was taken care of financially given how filthy rich they all are?

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30 Jun 2015, 19:19
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
ottersnott wrote:
I wonder if the band made sure he was taken care of financially given how filthy rich they all are?


:lol: Yeah right. We're talking Gene Simmons here.


30 Jun 2015, 19:20
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Honest question. It would be a shame if not.

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30 Jun 2015, 19:24
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Wiki says he went on to form White Tiger...whatever that is.

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30 Jun 2015, 19:27
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
I would imagine he had a contract with clauses in it just like any other employee. He also was able to eventually get back to playing and working so I don't imagine anyone expected any extra compensation. no different than any other business. Gene and Paul give a shit ton of money (and time) to a lot of causes, but a situation like that wouldn't really be an issue i don't think.

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30 Jun 2015, 19:31
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
St. John was a Musicians Institute type player, pretty technical for a KISS guitarist really.
I'd call it a toss-up between St. John and Vinnie Vincent, who was no slouch himself

I was really surprised to find out that St. John died from a brain hemmorage brought on by Meth.


30 Jun 2015, 21:10
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
ottersnott wrote:
I wonder if the band made sure he was taken care of financially given how filthy rich they all are?



80s Kiss is quite under-rated....those albums are generally really strong.

Anyway, I seem to recall reading that he was paid a pittance for his time in Kiss.....or, at least, not any significant sum of money which would have left him "rich".


30 Jun 2015, 21:13
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
ottersnott wrote:
I wonder if the band made sure he was taken care of financially given how filthy rich they all are?


:spit:

Holy shit, you serious??

:lol:

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30 Jun 2015, 21:49
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Yeah, believe me, KISS paid msj a salary and not an incredibly high salary at that. He was merely an employee of the "KISS Corporation"...nothing less and nothing more. It was not like the band themselves were raking in the cash during that era. In fact, I think a LOT of people would be incredibly surprised if they knew just how near bankrupt KISS became more than once throughout their career. The 80's were hard times for those guys as, despite whether you like their 80's output or not (I personally DO NOT), many, many people simply lost their interest in the band. KISS were trying to latch on to the "new sound" of the 80's (that pop-rock-metal type shit that was so big in the earlier part of the decade, whereas things seemed to traverse towards more "poppy" roads as the decade wound along - until that whole scene and style basically burned itself out and became it's own joke. (People blame "Nirvana" and/or "grunge" for killing 80's music, but that's a load of bullshit, Nirvana simply happened to become the next "big" band, a la what happened once GNR released "Sweet Child 'O Mine" as a single in the summer of '88). What killed 80's music was 80's music itself. It had gotten SO damned ridiculous by the end of the decade and very first tinges of the 90's, it would have never survived regardless).

It still amazes me as to just how many people believe that KISS were still filthy rich all throughout the 80's Truth is? That band was hanging on, maybe not by a "thread", so to say, but they were most certainly NOT the most financially solvent band in the land and things were just about to get even worse as the 90's wore on. Those KISS Conventions turned out to be the bands saving grace, as it helped them, initially, in a time of both financial AND press/publicity sorta need(s), but, in the end of course, it ended up being their saving grace for the most part because it led to "Unplugged" which we all know what THAT led to (only one of THE biggest tours, if NOT the biggest tour of the band's entire career, in which 100's of millions of dollars were generated for a great number of people, including, obviously, the band themselves).

And (I know I'm getting off track here, but, eh....) despite ACE and PETER complaining about being founding members of the band and how they deserved and equal cut? Bullshit. (and I LOVE LOVE LOVE Peter and ACE - my favorite 2 members of OG KISS). But they left to receive all of the power and the glory for themselves (or so they thought) and, especially for Peter? That "power" and that "glory" never did come. By the time the band reunited for the reunion tour? Ace and Pete were playing some of THE biggest shit-holes you can even imagine. I can only assume that they were making VERY little money (they did that tour together in like 1995 and it was a disaster). Ace's albums were generally hodge-podge's of varying quality (good shit a la "Into the Night"...of course, another Russ Ballard song, and god-awful tripe like "Dolls"...UUUGGGHHH). And while I might be one of maybe 10 people on Earth that actually LIKES Peter's '78 KISS solo (seriously...I really DO like that album), everything else he did post-KISS was just SHIT. Mr. "I wrote Kiss biggest hit "Beth" - which I don't even believe he wrote - proved just how damn hard it is to replicate that kind of success.

I'll leave the KISS were damn near broke in the 80's topic at that and recommend that anyone of you interested in the matter read some of the books that really go into detail concerning the bands financial state of affairs during that decade. I can't remember which one is the best, title wise, but I'm sure with the help of Google, it shouldn't be difficult to figure it out.....

But....back on topic about Mark St. John (AKA Mark Norton, I *think* was his real name....someone can correct me if I'm wrong about that)....

MSJ complete lost himself to his meth addiction, which, while that might have been what led to his death, I do not believe that it was from USING the drug, but by being jailed for possession of the drug. By the 2000's, Mark was back living with his parents, giving guitar lessons to try and make some sort of a meager income (which, what little he did generate all went to drugs.....not judging him, as I've been there myself....just saying, them's the facts)....

He was thrown in jail some time in the 00's (I forget just when now) and he was beat up pretty damn bad while in for stealing food from another inmate). As a matter of fact, being caught stealing, his fellow inmates were each given a "lick or two" on him and MSJ was beat for a solid 2 straight hours at least. (Keep in mind, he died a year or two following said beating of that brain hemorrhage). After his beating, the inmates were "rewarded" with extra food. I can remember many folks feeling as though the beating he took is absolutely what ultimately led to his death shortly thereafter (and to be honest? I wouldn't doubt it myself).

I'm very cloudy on remembering all of these details now, 8/9 years after the fact, but I bet you could do a search on the matter and discover much more than what I have mentioned in this post.


30 Jun 2015, 22:27
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
I've read a lot of the same details on the sad last years of Mark Norton/St. John. What's also sad is that he wasn't really respected in Kiss. Simmons actually complained about Mark's playing, saying that Mark was too busy trying to be a "musician," and forgetting he was supposed to be an "entertainer."

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30 Jun 2015, 23:19
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
ottersnott wrote:
Mark St.John was their best guitar player?
No.
ottersnott wrote:
Just listening to Animalize.
Decent album.
ottersnott wrote:
I wonder if the band made sure he was taken care of financially given how filthy rich they all are?
Nope.

Clearly Mark suffered the wrath of Gene and Paul from their fallout out with Vinnie Vincent.

G & P were hellbent to try and make sure that never happened to them again.

Mark was the poor guy that bore the brunt of that anger.

As Mark said in an interview he knowingly signed up for it. but I'm sure it was a bit more than he expected.
I'm not saying G & P don't have a right to do what they did but they could've been a bit more diplomatic about it.

RIP Mark.

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http://www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopi ... =1&t=83514

Interview with MARK
http://www.kissasylum.com/views/markstjohn99.shtml

"There was nothing equal about it at all. I was a hired hand. Period. Think everybody got a piece of the pie? I got maybe some crumbs off a piece! That's all bullshit. My work is all over that album, but I don't get credit or paid for it. No type of royalties at all.

That was the agreement when I got in the band. They didn't want me to get any publishing, meaning I couldn't contribute any songs to the band. It's like, you can play guitar in the band but we don't want to use any of your music. If I had said no they wouldn't want me in the band because they wanted someone that they could control so they could make all the money. And at the time I am thinking to myself, am I going to be greedy or is this going to be a chance for me to get inside an actual band? Am I going to be stupid and say no and turn down what could be the best gig of my life? So, it was one of those type of things. I took the contract without the publications otherwise I wouldn't have been in the band.

So when it was all said and done, all the work I did and everything, I got fucked. You know, seriously. I spent all the money on attorneys and stuff and it really didn't do any good. So I said, whatever, I'll sign it. And I did the album and everything, and I still didn't sign the contract until I was all done, and that was stupid. It was a good learning experience. I will never do the same thing again, but when I think back at it if I had known more about the business it wouldn't have happened that way. But I was just a musician. It is funny being a musician and not knowing anything about the "business" and then jumping into one of the biggest business bands in the world. I got my feet got wet real fast..... real fast! Like, "Hello!" But it's all good, its all good. I mean, I wouldn't be talking to you or doing what I am doing at these conventions if it wasn't for them."

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01 Jul 2015, 00:22
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
strangeways wrote:

I'm not saying G & P don't have a right to do what they did but they could've been a bit more diplomatic about it.



Man, there's some classic understatements in this here thread, folks.

"Diplomatic" is a concept Gene Simmons couldn't even begin to comprehend. Even his kids & cougar would fall out laughing at this suggestion. :lol:

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01 Jul 2015, 10:24
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Man, there are people here who really seem to know Gene and Paul. I am jealous :stupider: :(


01 Jul 2015, 11:32
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
The Devil wrote:
Man, there are people here who really seem to know Gene and Paul. I am jealous :stupider: :(


:lol:

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01 Jul 2015, 15:17
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Whatever, dude. The guy is one of the most selfish, greedy fucksticks in the history of Rock n Roll.

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02 Jul 2015, 12:41
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Mark St. John played on (most of) one album, wrote no songs and managed to play 2 and a half concerts before getting canned. What's really unfair is that he gets to be considered a member of KISS for eternity while guys like Anton Fig and Bob Kulick are completely unknown except to diehards.

The only thing MSJ had in common with Vinnie was that he could play fast. Vinnie wrote songs and his solos were melodic and memorable in addition to being fast. There's no evidence that MSJ could write a decent song. I doubt G&P were intimidated by his skills.

Guys like Bruce Kulick, Eric Singer & Tommy Thayer seem to have done alright in KISS. MSJ acts like it's an injustice that he was a salaried employee in that interview. That's ridiculous in my opinion. I doubt there are many bands that, having already achieved success, would make new members equal partners.

I'm not drinking the kool-aid here, G&P aren't angels. Paul, especially, seems to be kind of bitter towards a lot of people in his past. Gene's got a big mouth but and hasn't given people appropriate credit for songs in the past.

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02 Jul 2015, 14:48
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
The Devil wrote:
Man, there are people here who really seem to know Gene and Paul. I am jealous :stupider: :(


I do

:)

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02 Jul 2015, 15:22
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
What exactly were Gene and Paul's obligations? Sounds like he was paid what he agreed to then couldn't do the touring commitments. Were they supposed to set the guy up for life for what most consider very minor contributions? Hell no.

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03 Jul 2015, 13:19
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Auslander wrote:
The Devil wrote:
Man, there are people here who really seem to know Gene and Paul. I am jealous :stupider: :(


I do

:)

Stories now, Neil!!!!!

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03 Jul 2015, 15:20
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
voodoo dust wrote:
Auslander wrote:
The Devil wrote:
Man, there are people here who really seem to know Gene and Paul. I am jealous :stupider: :(


I do

:)

Stories now, Neil!!!!!


I've known those guys since the early - mid 80s. We used the same recording studios back then.

What happens in Vegas...

:)

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03 Jul 2015, 16:53
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Reigning Blood wrote:
Whatever, dude. The guy is one of the most selfish, greedy fucksticks in the history of Rock n Roll.



Whatever right back at you. You try and keep a business going for 30 + years and have it all be sunshine and roses :stupider: :(


05 Jul 2015, 15:42
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
The Devil wrote:
Reigning Blood wrote:
Whatever, dude. The guy is one of the most selfish, greedy fucksticks in the history of Rock n Roll.



Whatever right back at you. You try and keep a business going for 30 + years and have it all be sunshine and roses :stupider: :(


Not to mention having to deal with people like Peter Criss and Vinnie Vincent :crazy:

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05 Jul 2015, 19:30
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Nah, Ace is the man, last night confirmed that for me. I was never into KI$$ much but I do like the Ace material the best.

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06 Jul 2015, 16:40
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Post Re: Kiss question. Is it possible that.....
Yeah if Ace could've stayed in the band and Eric Singer replace Peter,I don't think nearly as many people would be crying "Kiss cover band" the way they do these days

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06 Jul 2015, 17:47
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